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Author Topic: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10  (Read 5410 times)

muzicman0

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Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« on: January 25, 2011, 09:51:03 PM »

Can anyone walk me hrough setting this up on the DM10?  I have tried, andI just can't get it to work at all...also, if anyone can help set up the crash mutes, that would be helpfull...love the software, but can't seem to get it going right...thanks!

mm0
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vaikl

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2011, 08:04:14 AM »

Can anyone walk me hrough setting this up on the DM10?  I have tried, andI just can't get it to work at all...also, if anyone can help set up the crash mutes, that would be helpfull...love the software, but can't seem to get it going right...thanks!

Can you explain what SD should do when you say "continuous hihat"? And what exactly causes a problem with crash mute or, as I suggest, cymbal choke?
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2011, 08:09:58 AM »

sure...basically, the hihat pedal doesn't work at all.  the 'control' in SD is set to CC1 or CC4 (both are listed), but doesn't change the hihat sound from open to close. 

and the choke causes a completely new cymbal sound to be triggered, instead of muting the cymbal.  Under articulation in SD for the crash, there is 'crash' and 'crash mute'...so, I set them up with the midi notes for each according to the chart available on this site, but if I hit the cymbal, then try to choke, it just sounds a new crash sound, but a different one (almost like a mute, but a little longer...it's a little wierd)...

Hope that helps, and thanks!

mm0
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vaikl

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2011, 08:24:43 AM »

Could be a mapping issue. If you open the "Presets" menu near the "cc" button, what preset do you have chosen under the "MIDI/Note mapping" subsection?

The CC values are correct, because the DM10 sends hihat CC4. But the mapping of the CC values differ with the presets. Choosing "E-Drums" is not 100% perfect for the DM10, but should work with open/close and also with the choking issue.
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2011, 11:35:16 AM »

Thanks again...when I get home from work today, I will check/try, and let you know what I figure out.
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2011, 11:48:43 AM »

sorry it took so long to get back...anyways, I got the ho-hat to work, but only in the stand alone app...not in my DAW.  any suggestions?

The crash choke still doesn't work at all.  either in the solo app, or the DAW.

thanks!

mm0
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vaikl

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2011, 12:11:35 PM »

What's your DAW, on Mac or PC?

In an earlier thread you had mentioned that you use MIDI to XLR adapters with a Focusrite. Can you reproduce your problem if you use only the USB connection from the module to your computer?

For the choke: If you touch the choking stripe, can you see a MIDI signal coming in on your computer?
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2011, 12:18:54 PM »

I use Presonus Studio One. 

in the Solo App, the E-Drums mapping preset is up in the File|Edit|Audio menus...of course those don't show up in Studio One.  I tried getting it set up in Solo, and save it as a project, but that didn't work either.

I haven't tried the USB interface, and it's not very feasible, due to locations of the PC/Drums...but maybe I can try my laptop and see what happens.

I'll check the choke question ASAP...I am not sure right now, but I believe it is receiving data.

Thanks again!
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vaikl

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2011, 12:32:19 PM »

I use Presonus Studio One. 

in the Solo App, the E-Drums mapping preset is up in the File|Edit|Audio menus...of course those don't show up in Studio One.  I tried getting it set up in Solo, and save it as a project, but that didn't work either.

Just try to leave the MIDI settings in the Solo app on Default and go into the Superior Drummer window itself. Click the Mapping tab and then the "Presets" menu above the piano roll to select "Edrums" in the MIDI/Note mapping submenu.

This way you could see incoming MIDI notes on the piano roll and check if there's a key mapping to specific sounds (notice how the mappings change if you select different entries in the above mentioned submenu). And you could save it to a project to use it together with Studio One.

While you say Studio One - is it the Artist or the Pro version? Only the Pro version can handle different MIDI-to-VSTi connections correct.

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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2011, 12:33:48 PM »

It's the Pro version...I originally bought a presonus interface, and at the time they had a killer upgrade deal...ended up getting the pro version for (iirc) $150.
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2011, 02:14:03 PM »

I'm probably just blind, but where is the mapping tab?


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vaikl

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2011, 04:23:48 PM »

Oops, that looks strange. Since SD 2.0 there must be a Groove and a Mapping tab between the Mixer and the Bounce tabs above left. Maybe that your installation of SD is corrupt?

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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2011, 04:25:25 PM »

this is pulled off of toontracks website...it's not an actual screenshot from mine, however, this is what mine looks like...
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2011, 04:40:01 PM »

After looking at your screen shot, I'm not sure anymore.  My drums and PC are stored at a church, but I will be there tonight, and I will check it out to see.

Thanks again!
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vaikl

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2011, 05:04:02 PM »

I would suggest an update to version 2.2.3 as there are also improvements to work together with Studio One.
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2011, 02:58:48 PM »

OK, so that fixed the Hihat issue, but the crash choke is still 2 different sounds.  I'll keep working...

mm0
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2011, 10:35:23 AM »

I must be doing something wrong!  everything works great (and sounds amazong!), except the crash, I just can't get the choke to work...so, what I expect to happen is:

1) strike crash 1, and it sounds.
2) grab the choke bar, and it mutes

what actually happens is:

1) Strike crash 1 and it sounds
2) grab the choke bar, and it plays a whole new sample of a muted crash...

anyone have any ideas of what to try next?  I mean, I guess I could just grab the choke instead of hotting the cymbal first, but that seems wierd, and I wouldn't think it was supposed to work that way...
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vaikl

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2011, 04:48:54 PM »

You are not doing something wrong, it's a "design" problem with Superior Drummer, not being properly developed for live/e-drumming.

There are two common MIDI control methods for cymbal choking: sending a "Note Off"- or sending an "Aftertouch"-command. Note Off defines the end of a sound wave by cutting it off, Aftertouch defines what sound to play after a key (or trigger) is released.

The Alesis modules only knows and sends the Note off command on choking and Superior Drummer is designed to await an Aftertouch (you can read it in the SD manual on page 49) and plays a different sound, like you hear it. Other than apps like BFD, SD doesn't automatically blend between the two sounds, so you always hear the crash sound cutting off and then the "Mute" sound coming in with full attack at offset zero.

What you can do (but you'll have to do this for every SD kit you'll play): Go to the Construct page, select your crash, go to the Instrument section, activate "Edit articulation only", select the "Mute" articulation from the menu above. Then go to the Envelope section, activate it and tweak the different offset (i.e. at 140ms), attack (85ms), release and decay parameters until you'll get a nice, nearly unhearable blending between the crash and mute sound.

My values are only a starting point, it all depends on your power, trigger settings and the sound of the specific cymbal in SD.

Wish you luck! ;)



« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 05:06:42 PM by vaikl »
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2011, 11:42:24 AM »

Can't seem to get it working at all...so, I had another idea I wanted to bounce off of you...

MIDI OX has a transform function...it appears that I can take the crash choke note and transform it to aftertouch...

I am going to try this tonight, and see if it works.  Note sure if MIDI OX adds any latency or not...but if not, this could be a great option, assuming it works...
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vaikl

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2011, 05:12:07 PM »

Hm, you could try that but I'm not shure if it works. I had tried it with MIDIPipe (the same tool for OSX) but didn't get it.

Another variation of my proposal from my last post: Your crash has two variations, Crash and Mute. You can choose them like i wrote on the Construct page and make "Edit articulations" actice. Then, in the Envelope section, select "Note on" for the Crash and "Note off" for the Mute articulation. Vary the attack parameter.

This is not a real choke but will cut off the crash sound like the DM10 itself does it.
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2011, 05:50:08 PM »

I'm not at the PC right now, but hopefully will be able to try this tonight.  I have successfully installed MIDI OX and MIDI Yoke on my work laptop, and made a filter that works, so it appears to work like I think it should...from my google searches, it also appears that on a modern computer, there shouldn't be any discernable latency.  I will try this out, and post back...if this works, it could be a solution for a lot of people!
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2011, 01:26:18 PM »

well, the theory worked, but not so much in practice.  Or I'm still doing something wrong...not sure which.  I successfully set up the filter so that the crash choke was sending aftertouch on note 49.  When I do a learn on the mute articulation, it even shows up at AT34 (I filtered the note 49 to send aftertouch on note 34, which is the original crash note).  But now, all I get is a choked cymbal...

So, here is what is being sent///

No filter:

crash sends a note 34 on message, then a note 34 off message.
choke sends a note 49 on, then a note 49 off.

with the filter:

crash sends  a note 34 on message, then a note 34 off message.
choke sends a note 34 key aftertouch, then a note 49 off message.

so...bottom line is I still don't have it working, but I am close, I think.

Also, there is no effect to latency that I can tell.

mm0
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2011, 09:02:30 PM »

Well it works now, at least in Toontrack Solo.  The trick was taking the choke note off event, and transforming that to a aftertouch with a value of 1, otherwise the aftertouch stays on, so it's like holding the choke all the time.

It's still not working in Studio One, and I swear last night it was sending the aftertouch to SD, but today, I can't get it to pass the value on.  wierd.  I might try cubase, since I have version 3, and see if that will work.  Or maybe even Reaper.  We'll see. 

Thanks again for all the help!

mm0
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vaikl

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2011, 10:10:09 PM »

Well it works now, at least in Toontrack Solo.  The trick was taking the choke note off event, and transforming that to a aftertouch with a value of 1, otherwise the aftertouch stays on, so it's like holding the choke all the time.

Glad to read that. But be still aware that SD doesn't know a real aftertouch manipulation of a single crash sound. It's still a second, different sound with a special envelope that is determined by the value 1.

Think of Aftertouch like a data extension of the Note On command: you press a key/trigger (Note On), leave it pressed but vary the pressure (Aftertouch). The receiving device, wether it's SD or hardware or s/th else, now has to decide what to do with this pressure variation (which is in fact the pressure you put on the choke strip of the crash).
Aftertouch-capable synths would manipulate an ongoing waveform sound, simple sample players like SD play a second, different sound, because they aren't designed to hold sounds in their "brain" for that aftertouch.

It's still not working in Studio One, and I swear last night it was sending the aftertouch to SD, but today, I can't get it to pass the value on.  wierd.  I might try cubase, since I have version 3, and see if that will work.  Or maybe even Reaper.  We'll see. 

It depends on how DAWs transmit MIDI data to VSTi's like SD. Some of them look into the MIDI conformity table of their plugins and only pass vaild MIDI data, some will pass all data through. Cubase SX3 has an Input Transformer plugin for MIDI data, so maybe it's better to use this instead of MIDI OX. Reaper should take and transmit MIDI as it comes, but has some other tools to monitor and manipulate it.

I would still advice you to go the Note On/Off alternative in SD like I've described it earlier. But if you are getting results - forget about my hints ;)
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muzicman0

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Re: Continuous HiHat on Superior Drummer - DM10
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2011, 12:25:41 PM »

I could never get the note on/off thing working.  However, I used reaper this Sunday with MIDI Ox, and it worked perfectly.  Still not sure why Studio One Pro isn't working...gonna look into it more.

Thanks again for all the help, it is appreciated!

mm0
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